BlessedCause.org

Conversations about
Islam and Muhammad

an invitation

I've been receiving a ton of emails from Muslims lately attempting to debate the Sign of Jonah and the authenticity of Scriptures compared to the Quran / Koran. I am posting this in hope they will address their concerns here.

I do ask that we keep it at one topic at a time. Flooding with cut and pastes is not at all helpful, and I only have so much time. Thanks.

UPDATE: After receiving no response, following are clips from another forum with some mail answers mixed in. You are welcome to respond in comments or PLEASE post your emails here.

Culture Jihadist said...
But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. - LUMEN GENTIUM

Nevertheless, the religiosity of Muslims deserves respect. It is impossible not to admire, for example, their fidelity to prayer. The image of believers in Allah who, without caring about time or place, fall to their knees and immerse themselves in prayer remains a model for all those who invoke the true God, in particular for those Christians who, having deserted their magnificent cathedrals, pray only a little or not at all.
- "Crossing the Threshold of Hope" by Pope John Paul II

Jen said...
ummmm, Culture Jihadist, maybe Muslims are so devoted because their holy books tell them it is DEATH to leave Islam. And the way it plays out in the Middle East, often members of their family receive torture if a family member leaves.

No Muslim can deny that to leave Islam, to stop being Muslim, is punishable by death in Islam. On that there are no contradictions.
Culture Jihadist said...

maybe Muslims are so devoted because their holy books tell them it is DEATH to leave Islam.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
You would have to ask Muslims in America and Europe, where no civil authority can put them to death for apostacy, why they continue to worship the one same God as the Christians do.

Jen said...
But Allah is not the Christian God. If Allah was, why would he put a curse upon all Christians and Jews?

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah…And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah’s curse be on them; how they are turned away!" (Koran 9:29-30)

Culture Jihadist said...
The Pope says one thing, while jent says something else. There's a moral dilemma, choosing whether to follow the lead of the visible head of Christendom, or some anonymous internet blogger's opinion.

Jen said...
Don't believe me, don't accept everything from the Pope without checking with the Holy Spirit and the Bible. It's all about God and what He wrote. Compare that to what Muhammad said that Allah said, the characters are opposite.
Allah is not "God". It grieves me that we changed all the awesome names of God in the Bible to the title "God." Now it's very confusing when Allah is translated to god. We should have continued to call "God" Eloheim, Yeshua, Adonai, El Shaddai, so many beautiful names.

Allah is not one of them. In fact, phonetically, in Hebrew, Allah means to curse and lament.

dizzy said...
So the pope and the catholic church is suffering from apostasy, just as we were warned. That is why I differentiate Catholicism from Christianity. I am NOT doing this to start a flame war with catholics. Before you blast me, please read the following questions posed below and when you can answer them with biblical cites, feel free to respond on that issue.

Catholicism is defined by the whim of the Pope, whom the church sees as "infallible" on topics ecumenical, biblical and spiritual.

A "Christian" is defined thusly: A believer in Jesus Christ as savior: somebody who believes that Jesus Christ was sent to the world by God to save humanity, and who tries to follow his teachings and example".

Per that "Lumen Gentium" you cited, The Pope disagrees with the words of Jesus Christ that HE (Christ) is the one route to salvation. How can one disavow Christ's teachings on salvation and define oneself as "CHRISTian"? How can one praise those who worship other "gods" for their worship of that "god"; (as done is topic 16 of the Lumen Gentium) and the islamic "god" IS another "god"; and equate that worship of another "god" with the worship of the Christian God and still be a CHRISTian?

Their "god" didn't have a son. Our's did. So much for the "same god" idea*. Either Our God was lying to them about that, another being was lying to them professing to be "God" (large "G") and they bought into it, or they are lying about their god being OUR God. Take yer pick.
*http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/son2.htm

Molly May said...
Rather than attempting to take on jent, at which task you are failing, you may want to cut your losses now and trot on back to freerepublic immigration threads where you at least can sound the alarm for your soft-on-illegal-aliens buddies to help you out.

Instead of confining your modest talents to defending the illegal alien lawbreakers from Mexico, I see you've now branched out to include Muslims within your protective embrace. Pathetic...

You may want to bail out now. She's eating your lunch.

MarineDad said...
The visible leader of Christendom is not the leader of the church Yeshua built on the confession of Peter. The Lord never did relinquish His position as leader of Christianity. Christendom and Christianity today have no more than a nodding acquaintance with one another. Personally I will choose Christianity, it will lead me to eternity with God. Christendom is a nice social organization which seems to not want to offend anyone. Jesus offended many, most of whom have long since been forgotten.

Jen said...
I'm on the books as Catholic but I go to Calvary Chapel and other denominations because I love to study the Bible and I believe no one Church has a monopoly on Jesus Christ. It’s all about whether one has the foundation of Christ. We are to be born again, and I believe there will be many, and not all, from every church that are born again that have the foundation of Christ.
As far as an infallible Pope goes, I’m not sure I fully understand what the RCC means by that, but Peter was the first Pope and he made a mistake that Paul corrected him on. There are mistakes but God will deal with it.

I just get so tired of people bashing the Catholic Church. I just grow so tired of people bashing the Catholic church and I defend her often. I see the churches like this:

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
(~Jesus according to Mark 9)

Jen said...
MarineDad, you wrote: "The visible leader of Christendom is not the leader of the church Yeshua built on the confession of Peter. The Lord never did relinquish His position as leader of Christianity... "
I've never heard "Christendom" used like that

To: Molly May
Good response. I'm sure he took that screennaame for a reason.

dizzy said...
dizzy: ("Culture Jihadist" writes) The Pope says one thing, while jent says something else. There's a moral dilemma, choosing whether to follow the lead of the visible head of Christendom, or some anonymous internet blogger's opinion.

You unwitingly just made my earlier point, CJ. you have also shown a lack of knowledge of Christianity. I presume that you are not a follower of same. The Pope is the head of the Catholic church but is NOT the "head of Christendom". Catholics ARE bound by his decrees and dogma. Christians are in no way bound by the decisions of the Pope and have not been since the time of the inception of the catholic church under Constantine. Information offered by "Jent", per se, who you attempt to impugn as "an anonymous internet blogger" and who apparently is anything BUT, in no way binds Christians. It is rather the fact that what she is offering is in fact that of Jesus Christ, through what is specifically addressed in the Bible, that binds us. She is in accord with same.(doffs hat to "Jent") THAT is the binding authority for Christians. Those who are of the romist church will have to follow the pope's decrees on this topic. Those of us who are Christ's followers POST reformation (aka; the time of Martin Luther) will continue to follow biblical teachings and the pope's decree is meaningless.
the Catholics see "the Reformation" and the attempted destruction of "The Church"+. Christians see it as the acknowledgement and triumph of Christ's teaching over those of the romist church's hybridization of Roman paganism and Christianity.º
+New Adventhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12700b.htm
ºRoman Cathocilism, The Unbiblical churchhttp://www.scionofzion.com/rc.htm

The reluctant messenger, Two Babylons http://reluctant-messenger.com/2-babylons.htm

Culture Jihadist said...
"As we seek freedom in other nations, we must also work to renew the values that make freedom possible. As I said in my Inaugural Address, we cannot carry the message of freedom and the baggage of bigotry at the same time."
-- President George W. Bush, February 21, 2005

dizzy said...
CJ. I can see why you're in both here and the "open borders" threads. I suspect that you're in favor of keeping the borders open so the other jihadists can mosey in at their leisure, hence the dual interest. I am in both for just the opposite reason. I don't want ANYBODY coming over our borders illegally, regardless of point of origin. RE: BOOSH'S BS which you just cited. Everyone is a "bigot" (Definition: a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own) as we all have our likes and dislikes and personal beliefs. This would include you as you've made a number of statements in these discussions which have no basis in fact and are simply your opinions. El presidente BOOSH is one of the WORST. He ignores what 75% or Americans say they want, what security experts, national security organizations and the 9/11 panel say we need; he ignores history as well as ignoring common sense to push his own personal agenda. He's completely impervious to all the evidence to the contrary and will NOT change his opinions. That's "bigotry" to the "nth" degree. El presidente thinks Islam "is a religion of peace" in spite of the evidence and record to the contrary in existence since 638 AD (the Koran) and actions dating from 653AD to date. He thinks our borders are safe. He thinks that we "need" our invaders. He thinks that they are only taking the jobs Americans don't want. He believes invaders are good for the ecomony, apparently even those of the ilk that gave us 9/11.He believes we can stop people of that nature from coming across wide-open borders without in any way molesting his "family values peaceful agrarians" as they illegally pour across....See how it works? The Whitehouse is a refuge for an intransigent bigot living in La-la land. When I express an opinion I try and review the supporting facts up front and I am willing to offer up same, as in my previous post, for anyone interested. This tends to irritate "bigots" like you and Dane, holding opinions to the contrary, as, as noted and my facts-supported beliefs conflict with your prejudices. By doing so it makes it hard to argue personal opinions back and forth when one side just has an opinion based on personal experiences or preferences and the other side has supporting research. Feel free to start supporting your opinions.

plubius said...
The Pope is a man, nothing more.
Allah is NOT I AM.

Culture Jihadist said...
People argue endlessly about a being they have neither seen nor strongly desire to see.

plubius said...
To CulturalJihad People argue endlessly about a being they have neither seen nor strongly desire to see."
What people would that be?

HiTech said...
To dizzy: Per that "Lumen Gentium" you cited, The Pope disagrees with the words of Jesus Christ that HE (Christ) is the one route to salvation.

It looks like the Pope sees the road to Christ as beginning in morality and a belief in a creator. The intent seems to be that, with the Pope's blessings, and with the picture, however distorted, that they have of God, some of these Muslims sooner or later would come to believe in Jesus Christ, in the next world if not this one (i.e. in a purgatory). It actually isn't too far from some of C. S. Lewis's speculations about conversions that take place "under the cloud." Now whether this is credible is another story. The way many (not all) Muslims carry on seems to imply that they have cast the devil as their god.

MarineDad said...
To: jent
The term "Christendom" has been used to describe the plethora of denominations claiming to be Christian without keeping the simplicity described by St. Paul in the first Corinthian letter Chapter 1:
"21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

He was indicating that the message of redemption was so simple as to seem foolish to educated men of the time. Christianity is the movement started by the Apostles which holds to the Word of God, which declares that all believers in and of God's Word are priests,that Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Christ) is the only Way to be saved; and which worships Him regardless of the names men have hung on various assemblies of Christians. Thus the leader of the former is not the leader of the latter because only the Messiah can be the leader of Christianity, and He does not dwell in the Vatican.

The term Christendom was coined at a time when only the Roman Church was considered to be Christian. Christendom was the instigator of the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the persecution of the Jews. Christianity has its roots in Judaism, and the first Christians were all Jews. There are many today who are both Christian and Jewish. And there are many groups within Christendom who preach a message incompatible with God's Word. Once again citing Saint Paul, in Galatians 1:8 he said: "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" My wife who was born Roman Catholic, baptized Roman Catholic, grew up in a Roman Catholic home, attended Parochial schools for twelve years, and was married in a Nuptial Mass, left Catholicism when she was told by a priest that she should stop reading the Bible because it was making her ask too many questions. We both believe in the dichotomy Christendom/Christianity. And we choose Christianity.
(Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.)

Jen said...
To: MarineDad
thanks MD, when you wrote "was indicating that the message of redemption was so simple as to seem foolish to educated men of the time." I see that as so true.
MarineDad, the textbook was predominantly written from the Muslim standpoint, any idea why they refused to call Catholics "Catholics" in the textbook? They taught about Catholicism but it was weird, refused to call them Catholics, rather Christians.

I kept trying to figure out why...wonder if it's because the Koran curses Christians, but doesn't use the word Catholic?

MarineDad said...
Jen,
There are many major religions who have one commonality, the need to balance your bad actions with good ones. Islam, Rabbinic Judiasm, Roman Catholicism, most of the Eastern religions, usw. Possibly that commonality is the reason that textbooks biased toward Islam would not name any particular group but would lump them all under Christianity. But who knows what goes on in the mind of a Muslim radical?